Curse

Elevandar · Aug 13, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

ummmmmmmmm not to be really rather well i dunno but in any case would it b a bad thing if i did buy a few of the bracers at rock bottem prices (even if they are cloned ) cos i do like tormented wepons and while slack for those who have got them ummmmmm i dunno if i should really limit myself as well yea i never understood the whole prestige thing i just get things cos they look good (tho that nomraly goes hand in hand with prestige) but yea just wonderin if it would be just callous to buy a few armbracers for personal use??

Enko · Aug 13, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

ofc, anyone using that exploit and with a bit of a brain'd go for keys, shards or dyes.. not ectos, rubies and 5k+ items

the test was done not to make money for ourselves but to figure out how the exploit worked so we could pass on that info to anet. that alone shows our motivation for doing it as if we were doing it for profit, we would have immediately duped some higher priced items.

jackie · Aug 13, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

This exploit won't have massive impact to economy if those duplicated items flow to the markets little by little like I'm guessing they are and have been.

Dupers wouldn't propably want crashed economy either, it would just make trading harder for them.

FelixCarter · Aug 13, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyGiant

Err, whats your problem dude, it's not their fault.

I wasn't being facetious. ~_^
I was being serious. Fenix deserved a "thank you", but I can see now how it could have been looked at in the wrong way.

Whoopsy.

CHunterX · Aug 13, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

umm dyes weren't duped massively. a single red dye was duped to become two. after that test occurred, the steps were immediately sent to gaile gray so that they could close the exploit.

Ok one more before I hit the sack. I read this:

Quote:

Sorry but I had people confirm that they did this with a red dye in IRC. Thanks for playing, though.

And thought they meant this:
"Sorry but I had people confirm that they (the dupers game wide) did this with red dye (as in, they [the dupers] had mass duped red dye to make a profit)"

I simply thought the moderator meant that they had heard on IRC that the dupers had mass duped red dye. I guess poorly read on my part, and a little poorly written. But thanks for jumping down my throat.

Witchblade · Aug 13, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

imo, i dont care about ppl getting 500000k from this, economy cant get worse in a way.

getting the reconnect feature back is far more important to me than random cheater's cash. Keep in mind that those guys can only make cash using that kinda crap. I'd rather enjoy my selfdropped k's

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

the test was done not to make money for ourselves but to figure out how the exploit worked so we could pass on that info to anet. that alone shows our motivation for doing it as if we were doing it for profit, we would have immediately duped some higher priced items.

kk, i think we got each other's point

Stormcloud · Aug 13, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Well you see, I had to make sure the information that I sent to Gaile was 100% correct, so that it could help fix it faster. So sending speculation wouldn't really have been helpful.

I understand our reasoning fully, I really do. I guess im just the paranoid guy that would leave the actual testing of the flaw to anet and keep my account safe

Guildmaster Cain · Aug 13, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

The problem will be when the ppl with 500000k start ebaying that amount. I think that would be 500x 50 = 2500 USD.

That is not something that should be encouraged.

And about that Fenix or somthing duping the red dye. It doesnt matter wether he has proof. It is common knowledge now that ppl have duped armbraces. He reported how he did this to Gaile and she works on it now (even past her bedtime). If u want to know the proof of it, u prob find out how he did it as well, which should not be in these forums.

Dont blame anet for this and start flaming them saying ur going to WoW. U got what u payed for. That is NO FEE per month. If ur not happy with that fact, go over to WoW.

ReiNaruto · Aug 13, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

I just think one thing, If a group of people who made this game couldn't find the bug, and you just could find the way it works to solve it in a few hours.

Only two thing are possible, you are a really really really smart guy. Or you were aware of the bug, and now you want to be the hero of the day. Anyway, you are really smart.

fenix · Aug 13, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Yeah, me and Enko never intended of profiting from this, since we both make more than enough money as it is. Due to the fact that things were dupable, the ways we made money would have disappeared due to the market being flooded. We tested it, sent pm's, and it's being fixed.

I think it's kinda funny that people are attacking us for being ZOMG HAX DUPARZ, when it was the guys who made 1000+ armbraces which got GW in all this mess.

Quizzical · Aug 13, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Let's suppose that I were to find a duping bug, and have no ethical qualms about using it to cheat extensively (this is, of course, not the case). What would I do with it? I could buy a lockpick, duplicate it a zillion times, and sell them back to the merchant to effectively have infinite cash. I could buy several perfect weapons to equip all my characters and duplicate them enough to equip all my heroes. I could buy one of each relevant insignia or rune and then duplicate them enough times to equip all my characters and heros. I could buy a few sets of prestige armor for all my characters.

And I could do all of that without the general public noticing, as it wouldn't show up as a blip in prices anywhere. NPC vendor prices are pretty stable. I once bought 100 of an insignia at once (to equip 20 hero monks), and the price didn't budge.

But equally important to this analysis is that there's nothing really there to be noticed. The impact of these actions on the game economy would be pretty much zilch. Indeed, it would probably be less than buying bulk runes and insignias to equip heroes as I've been doing recently, without using any exploit of any sort. What I have equipped on my characters doesn't affect the game economy.

Sure, with a duping bug, I could dupe and sell thousands of ectos, armbraces of truth, or whatever. But even apart from ethical considerations, I wouldn't, because there's no reason to. Seriously, what motivation would there be to do that? To maliciously mess with ArenaNet? To demonstrate prowess in cheating? To get more resources for myself would not be a motivation, as I could get whatever I wanted by relatively minor duping already.

Now let's take a more insidious case: a gold-selling company finds out about a duping bug. What would they do with it? Dupe thousands of ectos and armbraces of truth, to flood the market with them? Hardly. They wouldn't want to be caught. They'd duplicate lockpicks and sell them to vendors, and get all the gold they need to sell online that way. They could probably cut prices to attract more business and undercut competitors. But still, the impact on the general economy would probably be minimal.

The game doesn't have much of an economy, but it's because ArenaNet wants it that way. If the game did have a solid economy, it would necessarily entail chances for players to seriously mess up and lose a lot of resources. Players would do so and demand that the company change the game to protect them from the consequences of their economic idiocy. Or at least that's how it played out in Puzzle Pirates.

Unlike some games, there isn't a whole lot you can do with vast amounts of cash here. For a game that isn't largely based around the economy, that's a good thing. For scandals like this, it means that not much harm gets done unless someone actively wants to do a lot of harm.

Perhaps there have been people duping stuff for months. Even if so, the net effect on the economy probably wasn't much, until people started duping stupid amounts of very rare items. That last category of people necessarily consists either of idiots, or of people who want to be caught. Such people don't strike me as being the most likely to have tons of accounts to be able to launder stuff to the point of it being untraceable. As any police officer can tell you, criminals can be really, really stupid.

And let's not forget that ArenaNet does have the right incentives here. Catch the people duping stuff and ban them from the game, and if they quit the game, great. ArenaNet already has all the money they'd ever get from such people. If they buy another account to play again, that's likewise more money for ArenaNet.

Sure, this is a nuisance. But it doesn't really change a whole lot in the game. So please, calm down, and look at recent history. It was only three days ago that people were hyperventilating that the changes to favor would mean virtually no one would ever have favor ever again. We can already see how that worked out.

Enko · Aug 13, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReiNaruto

I just think one thing, If a group of people who made this game couldn't find the bug, and you just could find the way it works to solve it in a few hours.

Only two thing are possible, you are a really really really smart guy. Or you were aware of the bug, and now you want to be the hero of the day. Anyway, you are really smart.

someone posted a small description that it involved reconnects that he "heard from a friend of a friend" a while back in this thread. we went from there and extrapolated. it also wasn't that hard since its the same type of dupe exploit that was used in Diablo ONE.

strcpy · Aug 13, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Well you see, I had to make sure the information that I sent to Gaile was 100% correct, so that it could help fix it faster. So sending speculation wouldn't really have been helpful.

One can not speak for Anet, but I generally liked it if someone found an open door on any server I worked on if they told me. Yea, it generally caused a lot of work, yes it sucked - but MUCH better than finding out the really hard way (as with this). I would have simply sent it, I know some sysadmins do not feel the way I do but I can't fault you for it either.

Personally I do not think this exploit was in wide enough knowledge long enough for a long term rollback (a short term - maybe, but even then I wouldn't do it). I will not say it is new, if the first ones to find it were smart they could be "rich" but not in a total economy shattering way.

This would be counterfeiting were it actual goods and that attracts a certain type of person. That type - as we see - is greedy (and usually not that forward in time looking either) and simply selling lockpicks to max their storage gold and have a reasonable sum of ecto isn't enough. In fact, waiting a normal amount of time for a rare mini-wasn't enough - the type of person who abuses this generally had to have it all and have it now. I would bet that outside of a guild or two it hasn't been known for very long at all and those guilds keep it "reasonable" (though still worthy of a HUGE ban stick).

The first type of person isn't going to ruin the economy, there are too few of them, the latter will. As far as I can see it wasn't until fairly recently that it became prevalent enough that people noticed - if you *had* to do a roll back I would do no more than a week.

Hopefully Anet has logs and these people are hit with a really large ban stick. For the most part ambraces are high end items and most people trading in them read forums so the likely hood of them being dumped into the market now is pretty slim - the dupers are stuck with them. Yea, they may sell them off in ones or two but there will not be time to do so. Even if this has been in the wild for a few months it can't have been *that* destabilizing as the economy hasn't been that unstable (well, outside of high end and that isn't worth a roll back). Of course, check ecto/ruby prices and see if they drop as dupers unload them (if they do too much then the possibility of a rollback increases).

Personally I'm going to find it amusing when the dupers start showing up here complaining about their unfair ban, and you know that is going to happen.

Enko · Aug 13, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

they should just take the servers down for the day, look through for anyone with more than 1750 armbraces, and flag their account for further study . ..

FelixCarter · Aug 13, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

they should just take the servers down for the day, look through for anyone with more than 1750 armbraces, and flag their account for further study . ..

That's a valid point... Why haven't they shut down the servers temporarily? I think the community will complain for a good while... But it's for a good reason.

maraxusofk · Aug 13, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10185761

Heres someone who is most likely a duper from 2 days ago. regardless, i find it hard to believe someone farmed a full stack of armbraces legit, as that is about 15000 ectos worth, if each armbrace was 60e each at prices from 2 days ago.

Before u say anything, look at tile, it says WTS 250 Armbraces.

Cacheelma · Aug 13, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

That's a valid point... Why haven't they shut down the servers temporarily? I think the community will complain for a good while... But it's for a good reason.

Well, that would fix the economic problem this thing would cause DIRECTLY. BUT, since when Anet fix things directly anyway?

joze · Aug 13, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10185761

Heres someone who is most likely a duper from 2 days ago. regardless, i find it hard to believe someone farmed a full stack of armbraces legit, as that is about 15000 ectos worth, if each armbrace was 60e each at prices from 2 days ago.

stop throwing out inaccurate accusations. before you throw out accusations, get some proof.
and if he was a duper, what would it help this thraed & the community (other than people going PANIC and spamming him like hell).
go on, tell me i'm a duper too, i have armbraces.

Enko · Aug 13, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10185761

Heres someone who is most likely a duper from 2 days ago. regardless, i find it hard to believe someone farmed a full stack of armbraces legit, as that is about 15000 ectos worth, if each armbrace was 60e each at prices from 2 days ago.

ecto most likely didn't dupe (at least i hope he didn't). he made a crapload of money reselling the asian mini pets.

Tijger · Aug 13, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

Sure, this is a nuisance. But it doesn't really change a whole lot in the game. So please, calm down, and look at recent history. It was only three days ago that people were hyperventilating that the changes to favor would mean virtually no one would ever have favor ever again. We can already see how that worked out.

QFT, glad to see I'm not the only voice of reason here

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

That's a valid point... Why haven't they shut down the servers temporarily? I think the community will complain for a good while... But it's for a good reason.

Why shut down the servers when they already disabled the means by which the exploit worked, way to overreact there.
The 'community' always complains so thats not exactly anything new or unusual.